"What sets Christianity apart from other religions?"
That's a question someone recently emailed me. They were wrestling with some of the rather exclusive claims of Christianity. Things like Jesus is the only way to salvation or all other religions are false. They'd met some people from those other religions (Judaism, Hindu, etc.) and found them to be good-hearted people who were just as serious about their faith as we are. So how could those religions have such strong followings if they aren't real? And what right do we have to say our faith is the only way to the truth?
Those are the kind of questions I love to wrestle with because most of the time we debate things that don't really matter (see church traditions or fellowship issues). Rarely do we get to discuss the big questions. Things like is Jesus really who he claimed to be and if that's true, then what difference does it make? I think Satan purposefully does this to distract us. If he can keep us sidetracked with the smaller issues of faith then we won't have time for the bigger issues of faith. So while the world debates Jesus, the church is busy debating music or some other issue. Consequently, our voice is silenced and we allow the media or popular culture to provide the answers to people's questions. But I digress...
So how would you answer my friend? What is it that sets Christianity apart from other religions?
Thursday, March 20, 2008
Christianity and Other Faiths
338 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 338 Newer› Newest»Russ, thanks for reminding those of us in the Church of how foolish we are for talking about how we worship our Lord. I mean, He never really cared right? Especially in the Old Testament we see that God views His worship as a small issue and allowed it to be practiced however anyone wanted. It’s the same God, so Christians should take a lesson from the O.T. and never be concerned with worship or other small issues. Thanks again for the reminder.
Sarcasm, just to be sure everyone knows. - K
This is exactly what I'm talking about. We get more stirred up over worship practices than the identity of Jesus. The question the world is asking is not "how should we worship?" but rather "why should we believe?" How do we answer them? What sets Christianity apart?
You keep drinking the milk of the word and I’ll eat the meat. I know who Jesus is and can convey that message to others. The real crime here is your congregation not getting stirred over the false worship practices that you will participate in tonight. Worship is extremely important! That has never made Jesus any less important. I know Christ Jesus and I know how to praise Him because I know my Bible. Maury hills claims to know Jesus but refuses to take his worship and Word seriously. I beg of you, tonight instead of blaspheming His name with false worship and empty words open your eyes and hearts to His Word and all of its truth! Maybe then you can answer your question and give Christ to the world.
Malachi 1:6-8 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am the Father, where is My honor? And if I am a Master, where is My reverence? Says the LORD of hosts to you priests who despise My name. Yet you say, ‘In what way have we despised Your name?’ “You offer defiled food on My altar, but say, ‘In what way have we defiled You?’ By saying ‘The table of the LORD is contemptible.’ And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you offer the lame and sick, is it not evil?”
Amos 5:21-24 “I hate, I despise your feast days, and I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings. Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments. But let justice run down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Remember this tonight - K
Dear K,
I will try and say this as lovingly as I know how....
Please don't condemn those you know nothing about. Unless you are some sort of undercover church spy, you know nothing except what you are told. Dispite your pride, you do not have all of the answers.
Believe me when I tell you that there are many many sincere people at Maury Hills who know and love God's word. I am thankful that God is our judge and not you.
Gary A
In keeping with the original idea of the post, I say that Christianity is set apart by Jesus Christ. It is the only religion that accepts Jesus as the son of God, born to die for the sins of man. His forgiveness is offered by grace, not works, status, or heritage.
Along the same lines, in response to the alleged blasphemy, I'll say this: I'm not a member of Maury Hills Church, but have been keeping up with this blog. I do have a family history of CoC indoctrination. My husband and I are the black sheep led astray into blasphemous worship (sarcasm, too). The scriptures quoted above in K's comment are typical out-of-context CoC-style interpretaion of the Bible. Because a phrase may be worded in a way that fits the CoC doctrine, it is then used as if it stands alone.
Looking at the spirit of those verses, God refused to accept those means of worship because the relationship the people had with Him was not acceptable. This is a theme throughout the O.T which ultimately led to the destruction of Israel. It was not the act that was being admonished, but the lack of love in the acts. Worship is extremely important only because it is an expression of our relationship with the Father. Worship without a relationship is meaningless. This is the worship I have seen in "some" CoC congregations. Worship is demoted to duty. I argue that these same scriptures are targeting those congregations.
I'm not here to defend one church over another. But, I do want to make clear that the MOST important thing is a love relationship with God. That is what we were created for. Get that right, and the Scriptures make much clearer sense.
You are correct Amanda concerning the context, and that is exactly how I meant them to be taken. My point would be further made if these whole books were read. - K
K,
Are you then questioning the relationship the members of this church have with God? On what basis? Please define blasphemous worship. I have never attended the church, but what I gather from this blog is the pursuit of a love relationship with God. Otherwise, I would not keep visiting the site. I think many of the posts are simply intended to get us all to think.
I would really like to hear your answer here. I know that my family would say that a love relationship with God is centered on duty. I say that a love relationship with God is centered on faith which will manifest itself in duty.
This is something that I have been struggling alot with recently. I have a very close friend who goes to school with me that is a devout Muslim. He is an awesome guy and we have religious discussions all of the time. It is very hard to me to believe that because he was raised differently than me, he cannot ever come to terms with God. I also think about all of those in other countries that do not have the opportunity to have a relationship with Jesus. That has recently made me question alot of things I've been taught all of my life, not to say that I am becoming pluralist, but just that not everything is always black and white.
Matt
Wow. I am really glad that I checked in again. Blasphemous worship? Are you absolutely serious? Were you THERE last night? Because I was. I was raised in the COC, as were my parents and my sister. We were all there. I called to ask them today just to make sure that, on a Friday night, and not on God's holy day set aside for him, if they thought what we participated in was blasphemous. I didn't tell them why, just told them it was a question. They said no.
I do not understand how you can possibly condemn anyone when you have given no indication you have ever been to Maury Hills and participated in worship. The devil loves people like you, who are set in their ways and refuse to acknowledge others might be "right" as well. This breeds hate and discontent in the body.
It is you, my friend, who is on the milk, whether you realize it or not. Holding onto your certain scriptures that you believe support your points of view, but not opening up your mind to actually study. This is fear, another tool of the devil.
I pray for you.
In response to your question, Russ, I think asking this question is the important thing. I believe that all of the differences in beliefs that we have are there to make us question and see the truth of Jesus Christ. All other things pass away in comparison to the love of God and His son.
As for you, K, if you have no comments that can add to the discussion, I suggest you keep your comments to yourself. You obviously do not have ears to hear the truth, yet. But, when you do, we will all be here for you at Maury Hills to show you love and kindness and the grace you so obviously need (just like the rest of us). - M
I apologize for my absence, I was preoccupied.
In response…
I need to rephrase something I said. Amanda was right in context concerning Amos, but not Malachi. The scripture I quoted does deal with the practices of worship directly. And my point is made in using it by your responses as follows, (You offer defiled food on My altar, but say, ‘In what way have we defiled You?’) says the scripture, “Blasphemous worship? Are you absolutely serious?” say the responders. (By saying ‘The table of the LORD is contemptible’) says the scripture, “the church is busy debating music or some other issue” says Russ as if that was contemptible. Our worship is the table of the Lord, and you defile it and call concern of it evil. Then you will ask, in what way have we defiled it? I answer; look at the verses preceding these. Worship is defiled when people have no respect for the power of God or His Word. You are these people who do as they please and call it love and worship. Do as they please and not as God wills because a lack of reverence. Do I, Amanda, question mauryhills relationship with God? I do not have to question, it shouts at me as a fact that there is no love or reverence for the almighty God here. Do not pretend not to know what blasphemous worship is. You have been presented with this truth most of your lives, but your bitterness prevents you from hearing God’s word. Must I visit a brothel to know the filth of the prostitutes, must I witness the drunkard drink to say he is in sin? Then why, mauryhills, must I visit you and witness your works to know your wrongdoing? I have seen far enough on this site and plenty enough scripture to conclude your sin. Anyone who understands God’s word can see. Concerning scripture, where is yours? How do you defend yourselves for God when you do not let Him speak? I see none of His holy Word in your responses or posts. So, say nothing that He has not authorized you to say. Complain to me only when you have scripture to complain with. Use it or remain silent! M, I acknowledge that mauryhills would accept me, or anyone else, even those God does not. There is no love at mauryhills, love so often spoken of. I know this because I know there is no respect for God, authority from God, or action for God. There is no love for God’s word, and that is all I should have to say. You all have served as being divisive among the brethren. Whitewashed tombs and empty words are mauryhills and their love.
But I am here for another reason than to only be right and to fight. I know the love that the Lord extends. There is still hope for those who will find a reverence and love for God’s word. Please I beg, do not be bitter towards those who carry the harshness, wrath, and truth of the Word. Find it in your hearts to hear Him in this call He sends to you. Return home oh prodigal, be found lost sheep. The lord will gather you up upon your repentance. Do not answer any longer as the priests in Malachi, but repent. Beyond bitterness and anger, I believe somewhere you know there is truth in what I say, in what He says. The word of God, the real love that is full of God calls you… just answer and obey. - K
Dear Dear K,
Thank you for reminding me why I left the traditional church and started Maury Hills. If you keep up this hate speech we will have to go to 3 services and buy a lot more chairs.
Gary
I want to challenge K to stop being a coward and hiding behind an initial. If you have such strong opinions about Maury Hills and what we do wrong, AND if you think that you are absolutely correct and your way is the only way...then stand up for your beliefs and have the courage to sign your name. I would hope that if I "had Christianity all figured out" that I would be proud and not hide behind an initial. It's easy to be the first to cast a stone when you are hiding behind the crowd and afraid to show your face.
Russ, I am excited to read the next post. Kim and I talk about you guys often and the things going on at MHs.
A good non c of C friend (I try to get outside the cult as often as I can) and I were talking about some of our "issues" he reminded me that scripute says the world will persecute you, but the religous among you will try to kill you. When you threaten the very fabric of their shallow beleif system the only respnonse is to examine the system or yell louder about why you are right.
I truly believe that God is using you and people like you who to secure a community of faith for the next generation. It may not look like what we had and many may not call it "church" at all, but I pray it will be a community that can articulate why Jesus matters and be a place our girls will be excited about.
Matt,
You're in the exact situation as my friend (who also happens to be college age). The conversations you guys are having get to the heart of our faith. Who is Jesus? Is he really the Son of God? On what basis? Is he really the only way to truth? Why? Those are the questions we have to be prepared to answer. I'll try to give my answer in the next post.
Thanks Shump. I edited my former comment and that dropped it below yours. Just in case anyone is wondering how Shump had foreknowledge of my next post. :) By the way, I pray for the same kind of community.
It is amazing how fast Satan attacks. A question is asked about the identity and importance of our Lord Jesus Christ...and the first response tries to turn the conversation away from Christ and to our petty differences. Christ told his deisciples to "shake the dust from their sandals" when confronted with people with this type of attitude.
The question of who Christ is would definately fall under the "meat" category...3 songs and a prayer, music and other traditions would be "milk" and "skim milk" at best. We can see the results of criticizing another persons worship, when that person is worshiping with a true heart...2 SAM 6 Michal's embarassment of David. I think I will side with David on this one...and with Christ versus the Pharisee.
I think part of the problem is when you do not associate or know anyone who is not CofC. It becomes very easy to think (or act) that Christ is not central.
Mike Smith
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. – Hebrews 5:12-14 You do not discern both good and evil, but only want to talk about Jesus and who He is. You have not grown to act on Christ rather than only talk of Him. The meat, as the verse describes, is learning what Christ teaches and going on to pick out what is God’s will and what is not, including how to worship Him. The milk is the basics, talking about Jesus bet never acting and continuously questioning who He is. Please, read your Bible before responding. - K
K,
Do you have sins? I mean do consider yourself "sinless"? I don't attend church at Maury Hills, either, but I do attend a church much like Maury Hills--formed out of the understanding that I, nor anyone else, will every be able to achieve true "Christhood". I can try, but thank the Lord for his Grace, I will be forgiven for being imperfect. Your condemnation is the exact reason you have difficulty getting your point across..... Sadly, this has been the approach for many generations and the reason many consider Christians hipocrites.
Stephanie
Is anyone going to use scripture, anyone? The only responses I see are those that express anger towards me. If you don’t like the truth then take it up with God, not one who is simply conveying His word.
And Stephanie, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. - K
Okay, read Romans..... all of it.. Start with Romans 2:1-11.
Let me tell you a personal story, K. I spent my entire life into midadulthood in the Church of Christ. I went to every Bible study, followed every form, spent my days studying scripture for Bible drills. I was the perfect little Christian in training.
But the training came to an abrupt halt in late elementary/junior high. Church was a drudgery to me, as it is for many at that age. I had no personal relationship with Christ. Frankly, I had "better" things to do. And soon, I stopped taking church seriously. Don't get me wrong, I didn't stop going. I went at every occasion.
At the age of 12 or 13 (you'll understand why I can't remember in a sec), I was approached by our youth teacher to be baptized that night. Realizing that this was what was expected of me at this age, I did it. And I know that several other youths in our church were also approached about being baptized in the same fashion. And they did it, too.
Tears sting my eyes as I type this and think about the insincerity of my actions. Was I stupid? Did I rufuse to learn and listen? I don't think so. I thought that water would save me and I would be fine. I was doing what I was taught.
For about 15 years, I never thought any thing about my actions and neither did anyone else. I did what I was supposed to do, right? Was it insincere? Yes. Did it look insincere? No.
I came to "KNOW" Christ only just 5 years ago, and this time I remember it. It's not about the form..... it's about the heart. I know you doubt the sincerity of those at Maury Hills, but I hope you understand that sincerity can be deceiving and that God will be our judge.
The original point of this post is to show us that there are many who don't know Christ AT ALL. Couldn't our time be better spent?
Stephanie
K,
It is very hard to answer you with scripture, when you only make vauge general accusation of false worship not based on facts.
If you want to debate the sinful worship practices of The Maury Hills church then be specific.
It is our prayer that we are always guided by God's word and nothing else. If you read about us at www.mauryhills.com or better yet, come and visit us, you will see that we do not claim to have all of the answers. We are but humble students of God's word and unworthy followers of Jesus Christ, saved and accepted by his grace.
Gary A
Gary, why do you care what is based on facts? I believe it was you who said “I still enjoy the comfort of having a simple childlike trusting faith that accepts without question and believes without logic. The Bible never tells us to not base our faith on logic, but that is beside the point. I do not have to tell you what my problem is with you, you know it. Do not act ignorant. If you wish to have that discussion then I will have it with you. We can start with the worship of song.
Stephanie, I do not “judge those practicing such things, and do the same” which is what is being discussed in Romans 2. Look earlier in that verse “But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.” How many times in the New Testament are we told to make righteous judgments? We are to use God’s word to discern good and evil, we are called upon to judge based on His word. - K
It is pretty easy to discern the evil in this conversation. You will know them by their...love.
Also Stephanie, how did you come to know Christ five years ago? It could not have been by some supernatural divine revelation or a feeling. Knowing Christ only comes through study and knowledge of His word. Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” I am sincerely asking, not accusing. I am also trying to make a point to everyone with this verse. - K
Wow! I've been tied up also. It seems I have provoked a debate too exhaustive for this medium. Russ, I'm sorry that your original purpose of your post has gotten lost. But, perhaps I can address both discussions with one answer. The thing that sets Christianity apart from other religions is that it is the only religion in which there is no prior obligation to salvation. "While we were sinners, Christ died for us." However, the CoC teaches a "road to salvation." The teachings of the CoC do not agree with my next statement. We are saved by grace. As I tried to point out earlier, our greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart." Notice the verb love, not obey. Jesus said "I did not come to replace the law, but to fulfill the law." Any sacrifice of our lives is still not enough to "deserve" salvation. Jesus is our perfect sacrifice. By faith in him, salvation is credited to us, as it was in the O.T. (see Hebrews 11) It is this grace that sets us free. Freedom from sin. "What then, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound. God forbid!" (Romans 6:15) The church is arguing over how we worship God. I say we need to be discussing why we worship him. My guess is that I worship for a different reason than K. That is at the heart of our discussion here. Understanding grace reveals truth in the Scriptures.
As for love, I think my mention of the word has been misunderstood. I think what many CoC-ers must realize that you can have obedience without love, but you cannot have love without obedience. God does not know that I love Him because I obey Him. But, I obey Him because I love Him. Why do I love Him? "We love Him because He first loved us." And remember the second greatest commandment. "To love your neighbor as yourself." The Bible also says to "Spread the gospel to all the world, and WHEN NECESSARY, use words." Then, our biggest testimony that Christ is in us is by our actions. If your true effort here is to bring lost sheep into God's salvation, your approach is contradictory to His Word. Your angry darts of ignorant accusation are responsible for discourse among the brethern.
What K refers to as my pretending not to know what is blasphemous worship is simply my attempt to not assume anything about people I don't know. If it is instrumental music that you are calling blasphemous, then that is another debate. I assure you that it is through a deeper study of Scripture that I came to a better understanding of the church God wants us to be. I embarked upon that study several years ago to prove the CoC right, not wrong. But, I did it without the coercion of tracts or commentaries. That's something the CoC does not typically advise. It is not a matter of reading the Word which is something I can tell most of the commenters here are doing. Are you reading with the invitation of the Holy Spirit to guide your thoughts, as opposed to your pastors or church counselors? Soloman prayed for wisdom, and God was pleased with that request. In his wisdom, Soloman scripted the Proverbs. I particularly have seen truth in the several Proverbs that warn about rebuking a fool. A wise mans heart is open for correction. I hope to always be open for correction, and am sure you do too.
As for the lack of references to my scriptures, I am sorry. I'm in a bit of a hurry and away from home. Feel free to check them.
Matt,
I, too, have struggled with the question of those never introduced to the Word. I find comfort in Romans 6:17. The Bible tells us that we all have the same testimony of God in His creation. That is available to everyone. But, I admit this is only my feelings on the topic. Not something I have researched a great deal.
Okay K,
We'll go exactly where you want to go, which is music. Let's first take the verse you hang your "acapella" hat on, Eph 5:19 "Speak to one another with PSALMS, hymns, and spiritual songs." That was an inferred "command" from Paul. The psalms that he referred to were sung from the Psalms of the Old Testament. Now, turn to Psalms 92:1 "It is good to praise the Lord and make music to your name O Most High, to proclaim your love in the morning, and your faithfulness at night, TO THE MUSIC OF THE TEN STRING LYRE AND THE MELODY OF THE HARP." There is your command from Paul to sing with musical instruments.
And concerning worship..... to paraphrase Matthew 15, the Pharisees asked, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat..." While Jesus was proclaiming all foods clean here, he was making a more important statement that it is not what goes into a person that makes him unclean, but what comes out of his heart. Therefore, it is not the mode of our worship (whether acapella or with instrumental music)that makes our worship acceptable to God, but rather the outpouring of our heart---in Spirit and in truth that's what makes our worship acceptable to God. Also, God did not exchange one set of rules that His children could not follow for another set of rules that we could not follow. We live under a covenant of grace, of which baptism is a sign---baptism is NOT the covenant. Gal. 5.
K, if you believe that by following all of the rules correctly, you will get into heaven, then you do not understand the love and the grace and the mercy of our Lord. If you have broken just one of the rules you have placed on yourself, then you are guilty of all. But if you expect grace to forgive you for that one broken rule, then will that grace not forgive us all for our many mistakes? Then it is true that will we all be judged by our hearts Jas 2:10.
I believe that you are holding fast to a "rule" that YOU have interpreted from scripture. Are the verses I quoted about music offensive? Are they interpretations? And do you leave yourself any room to be wrong? I, too, spent many days arguing your side until I found that extending grace to others was paramount Mat. 7. It is not sinfull to believe that Maury Hills' worship might be acceptable to God, even though is it different than yours. You have an obligation to discern good from evil, but you do not have the right to impose your righteous judgment on people who are not your servents Rom 14.
Thank you, K, for making us open our Bibles for study on a topic I am sure that we will have to debate again.
Rob and Stephanie
Amanda, it seems you have a lot of false assumptions and ideas about the Church. There is no room for personal bitterness or assumptions here.
Mr. Anderson, both of you actually, I just wanted to say Mr. Anderson like agent Smith. Being serious now, where do you get the idea that the psalms mentioned in Ephesians refer directly to the psalms of David? That is simply not factual. But using your point that David did it then why cant we, I ask where in the New or Old Testament does God command or say He wants instrumental music as his worship. The answer truly does not matter because that was the old law and is not a command for us. My point is that God never wanted instrumental music but here is what happened, Acts17:30 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent” Under the old law there were things that God never wanted or intended. God always meant for one man and one woman to be together but in those days He allowed divorce and even men to have many wives. He also allowed instruments in His worship though He never intended or instructed it. Can I have many wives in these days? Men under the old law did, David did, why cant I? Because, those times of man’s misunderstanding are called to be over by God. He calls us to repent from such things. I don’t see any of you sacrificing animals, that was an Old Testament practice. But you choose what things you want to bring over and what you don’t.
What I do not understand is how your Matthew 15 example says at all that it does not matter how we worship. Sure worship must come from the heart, but we are called to worship in spirit and in truth. That example does in no way give you the required authority to worship God as you please. Also, God exchanged no commands, He completed the old with the new.
I believe that the real issue is man not having a respect for God. God has always cared how he was worshiped. Under the old law men died at God’s hand for improper worship methods. He is serious about this. But it seems we forget that because we see no men burning before our eyes, we loose that fear. The men will burn for the improper worship, just later rather than immediately. The Lord has always been very direct with how He is to be worshiped because it matters to Him. Because some want what they desire they chance His law. They have no respect for Him. The main point is that worship is for God, it is what He wants. How can any man feel he can change that? We should give The Lord what He requests and nothing more.
I have many more points to make and I’m sure you all do too, but I ask that if we are going to have this discussion from now on lets try to keep it to one point at a time. This will be more convenient and will allow all points to be answered and everyone to be heard.
I know that I am not alone. There are other readers out there who will stand for the truth, and I am asking to hear your words on this subject. Let us make God’s word known. – K (typical traditional COC guy)
This has been a good reminder of why my beliefs have changed over the years. I am thankful for the better understanding that I have come to know of the Bible. I am also thankful that God accepts me as the fallible being that I am. He accepts us all that way. May God continue to show His truth to me.
A "friendly" debate is a good way to put our beliefs to the test. I am praying that any others reading these comments will find truth in the Scriptures. It is always difficult to oppose tradition. I had to oppose mine a few years ago, and I believe we should all take that journey with prayerful study.
K, I pray that you will see the spirit of love that my comments have been made in. I've been thinking lately of the day the Bible speaks of when more Jews will believe than Gentiles. I'm beginning to that that's not so hard to imagine. Although I believe all Christians should be ready to explain their beliefs, in our endless arguments over the letter of the law, we are missing a relationship that God is calling us to and opportunities to witness in His name.
I'm praying for all of us tonight to proceed from here in the spirit of Christ.
It is very hypocritical that Maury Hills members are so open to the idea of multiple religions, including Judaism and Hinduism, being correct in their beliefs, however, they strongly attack the simple beliefs that THE Church of Christ preaches, which is simply the Bible.
How dare you suggest that what God wrote in the Bible may not all true (calling Him a lier). You do just that when you suggest other false religions may be correct in their teachings. What they preach cannot be found anywhere in the Word of God.
Why do you question God? Do you not trust His Word? Would you include Buddhist teachings as part of your worship or teach your children how to convert to Hinduism? Do you think God approves of questioning Him or saying that some of His Word could be false? I certainly do not.
Also, Mr. Anderson, if Paul "commanded" that instruments be used in worship, then why don't I hear about the "Maury Hills Band", and why didn't you use instrumental music from the very beginning? Simply because you "prefer" acapella music is no reason not to use instruments. Who are you to decide how you make worship the Lord just because you "prefer it"? (When I say that,I speak about the preferred belief of your church as a whole).
In conclusion, please stop attacking people who you assume are of THE Church of Christ (which I know will follow this post). Because of doing so, I fail to see the expression of "love" you all speak so much of.
I can see that Russ never intended his post to come across as an acceptance of other religions. Rather, he wanted to know how you answer the question when asked by others. Go to Maury Hill webpage. You will see their beliefs.
What sets Christianity apart from other religions...The major difference is that there is no need for any creed book or national best-selling author to tell us how to worship God or what Christianity is. God has done so through his divine word. We must remember that God has always found worship to be very important in the aspect of a relationship with Him. As we learn of in John 4:24, we must worship in spirit and in truth. God wants both. He desires the right heart and attitude but also requires the truest form of worship. That being, only what we have been given an example or command of. Anything else would be putting words into the mouth of God and saying that His book, the Bible, which is the best-selling book of all time, needs to have improvements made when it comes to how we worship and how we live. God warned Christians in the early church just as we are warned today that we must always be ready to give a defense but we must be on guard to not be swayed from doctrines or commands that are not from God or His inspired Word.
I strongly suggest that we all continue to deeply study God's word and understand what God has intended for man to do and not fall into the trap of letting man decide what God means for us to do. Speaking where God has not spoken is a dangerous position to be in.
I do not believe that any one is trying to stand in the place of God and place judgment on anyone. However, we do know that Aquila and Priscilla in Acts 18 did teach Apollos the way more correctly. By posting the different opinions that you have concerning the traditional Church of Christ as you call it versus what you say is Christianity opens the discussion for others to try and teach what God has given to us. We do not pass judgment but have the desire to help everyone in the world not just Maury Hills see God and His word more clearly and correctly. I do not try to offend or belittle anyone. What has been said has been out of love and concern just as it would be for anyone that is not a Christian or for anyone that is a member of the church of Christ where I attend. God's word does not change just because it's what fits or what I like the best but it stays the same. Let us remember as David says in Psalms 119:89, Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in Heaven. I do believe that is what makes it different. We have been given all we need to find the life, the TRUTH, and the way. (John 14:6)
Joel
How about Gary's claim that grace might extend to Jews Amanda.(previous post) Do the "shepherds" believe Christ is not the only path to salvation? But all of this is beside the current issue, worship. - typical traditional COC guy, K
K-Before I go any further I would like to introduce myself to you. I am Rob Anderson. I was born and raised in the coC and worshipped at the coC for 33 years. I have led singing since I was three. Baptized when I was nine. Taught Sunday school, youth group, adult class, singles and new convert class. I was a deacon in my local church when I resigned as such. My resignation was a result of many things but mostly of which was the result of the realization of "some" coC's faulty doctrine. I love you and I tell you this because i want you to know that it is my sincere hope that your heart will break when you read these words. I broke one my own rules which is to never argue on matters of controversy and if not for my wife Steph I would not have even joined in this wonderful conversation.
K. It has to be about grace. It can only be about grace and nothing more.Eph 2: 8. Not correct worship and grace. Not proper baptism and grace. Just grace. The mere fact that one could make a statement that judges someone elses worship shows that person does not understand grace. Okay let's say for the sake of debate that you are right. About everything. Acapella worship. Water baptism. Communion every first day of the week. The whole worship experience as K knows it is proper, correct, and true. And let's say I am wrong about it all especially the above mentioned. Does your proper worship place you closer to God than me? You MAY be right about David too. God may have not wanted him to worship with musical instruments, have multiple wives, oh yah let's not forget adultry, fornication, MURDER. I pretty sure God didn't want any of that. But what does it say of David? He was a man after God's own heart. Why did God overlook his so called "sin in worship?" It was his heart. I will ask again, does your perfect worship somehow increase your savedness? When we committed our first sin we disqualified ourselves from the Prize. When we believed the One who sent Him and called on His Name, we were saved. Then....Then K our worship comes out of love and adoration. It pours out of hearts saying i am unworthy Lord...i am soooo unworthy. If i think that my proper worship can obligate God to love me more, that TOTALLY WRECKS THE CROSS AND HIS SACRAFICE. It appears to me, and i sincerely mean that it appears, that you worship out of obligation, not out of a response of love and gratitude. If you can agree that it has to be about Grace. That unmerrited favor is a gift, if we believe the testimony of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, then it cannot be about Grace plus ???
Also the Psalms mentioned in Ephesians, i believe it was the Psalms of the Old testament.(One should not say something is or is not factual without proof.) Psalms is the most quoted O.T. book in the N.T. with Isaih following. you also spoke for God when you said he did not intend for musical instruments in worship. I have read the Bible cover to cover and have never read the scripture Thou shalt not...worship with musical instruments. On the contrary, there are more examples of acceptable instrumental worship in the Bible than not. You also took Acts 17 out of context. Paul here was refering to Gentiles worshiping idols. It has absolutely nothing to do with a believer's worship. You were also wrong about God not instructing his people to worship with instruments. In Leviticus 23:23 The Lord said to Moses, "On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts."
You are correct in your belief that God intended us to be married to but one wife. But what of our brothers in Christ who have had more than one wife? Can this sin be forgiven as was David's or under the New Covenant of Grace will we be forever haunted by our mistakes even though we have begged for our forgiveness. Again, NO, we don't sacrafice animals bc Jesus is our perfect sacrafice. I am not choosing to "bring over what I want." I am choosing to follow the heart of God. The one he intended the Isrealites to follow but they couldn't because of their missunderstanding of the law. Again, it wasn't the fact that they did not follow the law, they followed it to a "T." They missed the big picture. Matt 15:20 is a clear picture of this and has timely applications for today. You see Maury Hills eating with unwashed hands and i see God listening to their hearts.
i will probably step in this one, But, yes i believe we can worship anyway we choose. As long as it is in spirit and in truth. I know, I know, i cant worship and simultaneously murder at the same time, thats not what i am talking about. i am saying worship, that is in spirit and in truth, can only come from the heart, so then what ever we do, is a form of worship. i sing with KLOV on my way to work and worship God in spirit and in truth. Can anyone look into my heart and judge my motives, or see whether i am being truthful? Praise be to God no one but he can.
You are correct about respect for God. Man as a whole has no respect. But i have been clothed in Christ and i am covered by his Grace that cleanses me anew every morning.
i will leave with my confession of love for you, my love for truth, and i confess that i am the chief of all sinners here and i hope that i never think that i have got it all right.
anon (10:16 pm),
I was not affirming the faith of other religions. I was only asking the question "how do we answer them?" I believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation but how do I explain that to those from other faiths? What is it that sets our faith apart?
K, when did Gary make those comments about extending grace to Jews? I looked and cannot fine it to read his own words. Anyway, grace is extended to everyone if they but believe. Not believe and........(don't put baptism here, we can discuss that later) Then it would not be grace. It would be deserved. Grace cannot be deserved, it would not be grace.
Where in the Bible did God say to worship in an air conditioned building? Where in the Bible did God say to sit on pews during the preaching of His Word? I could make these points all day. Obviously, we have all spoken where God is silent. That is the freedom he has allowed us. And freedom is Biblical (Hebrews, etc.). Better yet, I thought God said to worship Him in all things that you do. So, are my actions only worship if I'm humming an accapella (sp?) tune at the same time? What if my changing a diaper could be worship if done in spirit and truth? What if I change a diaper with the mindset that all things come from God, God gave me children, and I am thankful to Him for the opportunity to be His servant as a parent, even while changing a diaper. Why isn't that worhip? Or better yet, why would that be considered sinful? Worship is not limited to the constraints of the four walls of a church. I say shame on you if you are guilty of that. Worship should not cease. Granted that is so difficult with the business of life and the distractions Satan loves for us to get tied up in. But, God desires for our hearts to be in constant worship. Why? Is God in heaven needing us to worship Him? How arrogant! Does He need our proof of our hearts desires? NOOOOOOOO! He is omniscient. Worship is for our benefit. God created us in a form which needs to worship Him to maintain closeness to Him. If I go about this day in constant worship, how much more likely will I see God at work around me and be sensitive to His calling throught the day!
One more question: Do you listen to secular music? I don't say that is a sin, but perhaps a waste of talent. I do occasionally listen to secular music, but shouldn't all of our talents be forever used for God? Or, is it ok because it ins't in a Sunday church service? If that's true, then we end up where we started. Maury Hills used instrumental music on a Friday night. Not within a normal church service. And, yet it is blasphemous? Your arguments have a lot of holes. You make a lot of inferences without Biblical command. We are granted freedom in the Bible. If God were so upset with instrumental music, I'm sure He would have made that very clear. I fear trying to convince you is futile, but I'm praying for others reading these comments.
Grace is a wonderful thing. But it’s all about grace? If I took no action for God would I be saved? If I were never baptized into Christ would grace cover my sins? There is action that one must take to have God’s grace, He gives us a choice. Other than baptism, an action we must take for salvation, scripture says “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.” 2 Corinthians 7:10 I believe if you were writing your own bible you would have 2 Peter 3:9 say (The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all will come into His grace.) But that is not what it says. The inspired Scriptures say “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” For God’s grace to come into our lives there are things we must do, and there are things we must do properly. Repent from our sins is one of these things. But that is not something we do before we are baptized and then we have grace forever. Repentance is something we always must do so that God’s grace can wash us. Romans 6:1-3 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” Repentance is all of our lives. If we do not continuity repent from our sins then grace will not cover them. Again, God gives a choice to come to Him. He has us act to have His grace and He throws it upon no man that will not work for Him. Revelation 2:16 “Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.” This is something God said to a congregation of Christians. Baptized believers who were in sin, but God’s grace would not cover them unless they repented.
In the Old Testament improper worship was a sin and some died because they did it wrong. Nothing in the New Testament says that that has changed. Improper worship is still a sin. Nowhere can you find a verse that supports your belief that one can worship however he pleases. Would you object if I said I wanted peanut butter on my bread during communion, or can I stand up in worship and juggle for God? There are some things even you would reject as worship so let us draw the line where the Bible draws it. Let us do it as He wills. If then improper worship is a sin we must repent from it to be saved from it. You have heard that it is a sin but you continue in it. God calls you to repent so His grace can cover you. You can not worship in truth and worship however you want at the same time. Love is also why I tell you this. I wish it were that maury hills would repent so that they could be saved. What you call worship that God never asked for is sinful; let his grace reach you with repentance. I know worship is from the heart and none of you can judge my heart to say that I do not worship in spirit. But someone can see where ones worship is not in truth. Your typical traditional COC guy - K
Amanda, God does not need our worship but He commands us to do it. “Could God in his soverinty choose to forgive (have mercy and compassion on) Liars, adulterers, murderers, even cowards (?) Rev. 12:1) Why not Jews? “quote directly form Gary A. God grants us freedom form sin if we accept it. You will never find scripture that states that God gives us freedom to do whatever we want and shame on you for saying so. Rather I am a servant of God, I have only the freedoms He grants me and I live to serve his every word. You cannot be God’s servant if you do as you please, he does not give His followers that freedom. Serve Him to the cross of the t and the dot of the i. I do not speak where the Bible is silent, air conditioned building is authorized by God telling us to meet; we must have a place to meet if we are to follow that command. Pews, sitting is how we gather to worship and learn, many sat at the feet of the apostles and Christ. I never speak without scriptural authority. If I do then I will repent from such a sin. How do you follow one of God’s commands by placing instruments in worship when you are commanded to sing? You don’t. Again, can I stand in worship and juggle for God? - typical traditional COC guy, K
Faith without works is dead, James 2:20.
Yes, the man with multiple wives is condemned if he continues to live in that sin and does not repent and turn away from it. We are all sinners, however, we still have the hope of Heaven as long as we repent of those sins and turn away from them. If I knowingly continue in those sins, I am condemned to hell.
Mr. Anderson, Leviticus 23:23-24 states “Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.” In this verse there are three separate things that the children of Israel are to do on this day, rest, signal that day with trumpets, and have a holy meeting. How is it that the blowing of trumpets is placed separately from the holy meeting? The trumpets are not used as worship as you will find throughout the Old Law. Also, Paul was speaking to gentiles, but the conversation was about past worship, and it could not have only been talking about idle worship because God never overlooked that. It is about how men worshiped in ignorance in the past and now God calls us to repent. – TTCOCG, K
Matthew 7:21-27
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart From me, you who practice lawlessness.' 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."
Hebrews 5:9
9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation
1 John 5:2-4
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Why is it so hard for some people to see why some of us have left the "traditional" church of christ?? Read above posts...it exhausts me!! Must we argue EVERY point?? As I have seen Russ and Gary A put it..it's very simple, why do we make it so hard??
Yes, every point - TTCOCG, K
k- I will leave one more comment and give you the last word. This is how I see myself and how I feel you see me. I am the sinner in the back beating his breast; you are the man up front thanking God you are not like me. I am the woman weeping at Jesus' feet and you are the man thinking if He knew who I really was he wouldn't let me touch him. I am the tax collector, the harlot. I am the thief on the cross deserving of hell-the sinner. You are the righteous man who was so gracious to point out to me how wrong I am and how right you are. I still love you and you don't love me. I still believe in your salvation and yet you condemn me to hell. I have learned one thing in the past ten years, not to depend on man, not even myself, but Jesus. I will rely on his promise that who ever calls on his name shall be saved. Who ever rests on him will not be put to shame. My hope rests in him. This has been challenging as well as frustrating and I hope that somehow this will lead someone to a greater faith. Sorry to all you folks for interjecting my beliefs. I am fully convinced in my mind, but I allow myself room to be corrected. I will continue to worship at the Christ Community Church that God began in my hometown when he led us out of legalism- out of the denomination known as the Church of Christ.
Rob
Sure, I’m Mickey Mouse, you’re the jolly green giant, and were all on a magic steamboat to the moon. See, I can make up stuff that’s completely not true or based on anything also. - K
If Maury Hills is not a "traditional" Church of Christ, then exactly what type of Church of Christ are they. Also, if most members are so glad they left the "traditional" Church of Christ and seem to think they have it all wrong; then why does Maury Hills even continue to wear the name Church of Christ. Why not change that, too?
B Lo
B Lo, I completely agree and wonder the same thing. You are either in the body (or Church) or out of it, you cannot be halfway in it, as Maury Hills tries to do by preferring the name, "a church of Christ". If you all hate the image that The church of Christ presents, then get as far away from the title as possible. My theory is that you still want to attract "regular" CoC members so you will not rid the name completely, but thats just my theory which may make just as much sense to you as why you still call yourselves (somewhat) COC, to me.
I am just an innocent bystander here, but looking at the question Russ threw out, (which has barely even tried to be answered, because of its depth and scary implications, and shallowness that most have approached it with) the good people are Maury Hills have not done any attacking. It seems that some, coming from the same heritage as Maury Hill's have conveniently forgotten the work AUTONOMY, and have decided to impose their wacked out views on these people trying to be Christ to their community instead of debating each other about acts in a building for two hours a week. I have visited Maury Hills and found it to be an awesome place, and many of them are probably like me, not really Church of Christ, if you define it the way K and others are trying to, but are members of Christ's Church and trying hard to repair the damage that has been done to HIS name.
I pray for the leadership there and the staff, that God will use them for HIS glory. That they will take the cheap shots that come at them on blogs like this and in the community as what they are, attacks from Satan, and that they will holdfast to the good works they are doing and the healing love they are showing a community that desperately needs Jesus. There may come a time that they are forced to look at changing the name for the sake of the call, but I hope they can transform what the name means to the community they are in.
Why are all of the commenters who are arguing the Church of Christ doctrine using initials and posting as anonymous? Secrecy and ridicule have never been the tactics used by Christ or the disciples. For the sake of clarity, at least use a fake name. I can't respond to five anonymous people.
What began as a discussion